Initiative Systems and You
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Can an initiative system allow for “skill expression,” where certain characters are more likely to act at the opportune time due to their stats, and a degree of randomness that’s still fun?
I believe striking that balance is ultimately going to be up to a significant level of playtesting, but also curious how close initial design could get to that balance with theory alone.
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In a similar vein, is it possible for an initiative system to support the competing needs of the more traditional binary of roleplaying vs combat centered scenes?
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In a world where most TTRPG players’ number one complaint is they can’t find a time they are all free to play, can an initiative system be developed that supports asynchronous and real time play in equal measure?
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About initiative systems in general, I've been developing a system for my own game for some years now. Immense amounts of play-testing with several groups.
Our initiative system works like this:
- The combat is divided into groups, usually allies vs. enemies.
- At the beginning of the combat, everyone rolls for Senses.
- The character that obtains the best result takes the first turn.
- If the character takes a relevant action for the combat and succeeds, the next turn is taken by someone from the same group; otherwise, the next turn is taken by the enemies' group.
- If a group finishes all its turns, the other group finishes all their turns too (regardless of failed actions).
- The result of the last action of the round defines which group takes the first turn for the next round.
Observed results:
- Turn order becomes super easy to track. You could say that you don't have to actually "track" anything, or only the GM, probably marking checks on their list of combatants to see which ones haven't acted yet.
- Players start to get used to thinking of strategies in real time ("Hey! I could do this now!")
- Surprise attacks are super easy: if your group surprises another (i.e., an ambush), your group takes the first turn and then the system is the same.
Bonus track: orders
This is a very specific and optional rule but very fun to use:- Any character at the beginning of their turn can give an order to another player character that hasn't acted yet.
- If the other character obeys, they can take that action now and then the first character finishes her/his turn (and takes their normal action normally).
- If the other character does something different or just doesn't obey, the first character loses their turn.
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That’s neat! Would you make any modifications to support a play by post game?
I’m not familiar with the success/failure mechanics but are target numbers open information? In other words could players infer their pass/failure status without waiting for the gm?
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That’s neat! Would you make any modifications to support a play by post game?
I’m not familiar with the success/failure mechanics but are target numbers open information? In other words could players infer their pass/failure status without waiting for the gm?
Yeah! At some point I'll make an English version of the play-test document so you can see all the details.
But basically you roll five dice and each die could be a success or a fail according to the used attribute (as in WOD games). The premise is that you need more successes than fails, so if it's a simple roll, you need 3 or more successes, and if it's a contested roll, you need more successes than your opponent. And to modify the difficult the GM could ask for additional successes on simple rolls.
About play by post, I'm not sure. Although I don't like PbtA games too much I think for a PBP game they should do the trick, don't you think? So you can solve complete scenes in one roll instead solving each action separately.
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The dice pool success/fail roll sounds interesting, I would like to see it in action.
As far as the initiative question, I lean towards a more amorphous approach. Having a set order has its benefits, but I personally see more downsides. To me it has a tendency to grind the game to a snails pace. Players, especially in current times, have an attention span of just a few minutes (I'm not pointing fingers, I'm as bad as the next player), having to wait on each person to take their turn leads to players "drifting off". Especially if a player waits until the start of their turn to begin to come up with an idea, or if the action of the player before them completely changed the battlefield.
A looser, more open initiative leads to players acting when an opportunity arises leading to a more attentive audience, in my humble opinion. The down side is, if the group isn't looking out for that quiet player, that player could sit quietly by and have the entire encounter take place without saying a word if no one brings them into the action.
My favorite initiative so far, while I don't believe they are the first to come up with it, has been Daggerheart from Darrington Press. Theirs is a loose, act when you want style with play shifting back and forth between the players and the GM via failure. The players act, and will continue to do so until they fail an action, at that time play returns to the GM. It seems to keep a better balance of player action and GM action. There are more specifics, but that is the basics of their initiative system.
I fully admit I have limited experience as a GM, so I am far from an expert, but the system that allows the players to be more active and have a larger role in the pacing of the game is certainly the better choice for my style. Now will a loose system work for a Play-by-Post? That I have no idea. I can see many more problems with that style if everyone is not seated at the same table, or at least in the same timezone. Strauss and I can have an entire encounter wrapped up before Sabrina even knows there is danger if there is nothing holding us back. For games that have a delay of some sort would likely need a bit more of a structured system to work best.
There are certainly pros and cons to both styles I have mentioned, and like all things I'm sure some swear by one and hate the other, and I don't think that will change anytime soon. Each person has their own style of play that they enjoy, and initiative is just another part of that. The day that I find the perfect initiative that has no flaws and everyone loves I will be sure to let you all know!
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The dice pool success/fail roll sounds interesting, I would like to see it in action.
As far as the initiative question, I lean towards a more amorphous approach. Having a set order has its benefits, but I personally see more downsides. To me it has a tendency to grind the game to a snails pace. Players, especially in current times, have an attention span of just a few minutes (I'm not pointing fingers, I'm as bad as the next player), having to wait on each person to take their turn leads to players "drifting off". Especially if a player waits until the start of their turn to begin to come up with an idea, or if the action of the player before them completely changed the battlefield.
A looser, more open initiative leads to players acting when an opportunity arises leading to a more attentive audience, in my humble opinion. The down side is, if the group isn't looking out for that quiet player, that player could sit quietly by and have the entire encounter take place without saying a word if no one brings them into the action.
My favorite initiative so far, while I don't believe they are the first to come up with it, has been Daggerheart from Darrington Press. Theirs is a loose, act when you want style with play shifting back and forth between the players and the GM via failure. The players act, and will continue to do so until they fail an action, at that time play returns to the GM. It seems to keep a better balance of player action and GM action. There are more specifics, but that is the basics of their initiative system.
I fully admit I have limited experience as a GM, so I am far from an expert, but the system that allows the players to be more active and have a larger role in the pacing of the game is certainly the better choice for my style. Now will a loose system work for a Play-by-Post? That I have no idea. I can see many more problems with that style if everyone is not seated at the same table, or at least in the same timezone. Strauss and I can have an entire encounter wrapped up before Sabrina even knows there is danger if there is nothing holding us back. For games that have a delay of some sort would likely need a bit more of a structured system to work best.
There are certainly pros and cons to both styles I have mentioned, and like all things I'm sure some swear by one and hate the other, and I don't think that will change anytime soon. Each person has their own style of play that they enjoy, and initiative is just another part of that. The day that I find the perfect initiative that has no flaws and everyone loves I will be sure to let you all know!
Oh so it sounds like daggerheart is similar to what @straussbelial suggested then?
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I haven't seen the DH system in detail (just some minutos of gameplay on youtube), but I THINK that the GM spend some "Fear" points between player turns to take enemie's actions, or something like that.
Other system I have on my notes "to try in some other game system", is something similar to Alien RPG: there's a deck of cards with numbers, every PC and NPC draws a card and the ones that are faster draw more than one card. Then the GM asks "ok, who has the 1st turn"? and the PC acts, then asks for the 2nd, and so on. What I think could be interesting is that no one knows the init number of the rest of characters so every turn everyone is expectant to see who comes next. IDK, is just an idea.
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I haven't seen the DH system in detail (just some minutos of gameplay on youtube), but I THINK that the GM spend some "Fear" points between player turns to take enemie's actions, or something like that.
Other system I have on my notes "to try in some other game system", is something similar to Alien RPG: there's a deck of cards with numbers, every PC and NPC draws a card and the ones that are faster draw more than one card. Then the GM asks "ok, who has the 1st turn"? and the PC acts, then asks for the 2nd, and so on. What I think could be interesting is that no one knows the init number of the rest of characters so every turn everyone is expectant to see who comes next. IDK, is just an idea.
I haven't seen the DH system in detail (just some minutos of gameplay on youtube), but I THINK that the GM spend some "Fear" points between player turns to take enemie's actions, or something like that.
Correct. The initiative system is generally as I explained, but there are two separate resources that players/GMs have, Hope and Fear respectively. Hope powers different character features (somewhat replacing spell slots) or to combine their rolls to attack an enemy. GMs gain Fear to activate some attacks for the NPCs/Monsters. Fear can also be used to break into players turns or change the environment of the fight. I typically only do this if the PCs have had an unusually high number of consecutive successful rolls, not giving the enemies a shot, or if they are being indecisive and leave an opening for mayhem.
I really do enjoy the system, but some don't like the extra resource management, I find it enjoyable. I do however struggle a bit with challenge ratings and building a challenging fight. I think that mostly comes from my inexperience. I also have a particularly large table when I GM, about 6-8 PCs, and that I believe is something everyone struggles with until they "just figure it out". I, am still working on that part.
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I do actually like the idea for a totally randomized turn order. I imagine that it would toss a good bit of variety and keep everyone on their toes. Everyone gets to go each round but it could be at any time. The only thing that comes to mind that could cause a problem are effects that have the "until the end of my next turn" type of language. If a player goes last in a round then first in the next, but that would be relatively easy to fix.
Unless I misunderstood and it is only one pull per fight, then you can ignore me!!
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So I was asked to give opinions on the savage worlds initiative system. And I gotta say I like it. Despite it's chaos it adds some interesting tactics.
To understand why let's dissect how it works:
You have a 54 card poker deck + two jokers.
Each round everyone is dealt at least 1 card.
If you have the hesitent hindrance you get dealt two cards and take the lowest.
If you have the level headed edge you are dealt two cards and choose which one you wish to use.
With improved level headed you draw three cards and choose.
And then there's the Quick edge which lets you redraw cards below 6, in cases of level headed, after you have drawn your two/3 cards you can start to discard and draw until one of them is over 6.
Extras (Nameless NPC masses) are grouped by type and all act on a single init card.
This continues each round until a joker is drawn. The one who has a joker gains +2 on all actions (this is very scary if a large group of extras gets this). Not only that they may go whenever they please that round with flawless interrupt. After a joker is drawn the deck is shuffled and things continue.
And the interrupting is where it gets fun.
See in a lot of d20 games you can prepare an action on a specific trigger to fire, you need to be quite specific on that trigger often and if it doesn't come up it can be a waste.
In savage worlds initiative you just hold on to the card. If something happens that you decide you need to interrupt you declare your intent to interrupt and roll athletics. The opposing party rolls agility, if you win, you go first, if they win, you go after then.
This can get pretty sneaky when you consider the mechanics of shaken.
In savage worlds you don't have a big HP pool, you basically inflict shaken with damage, and upgrade shaken to wounds, and you can also inflict shaken with tests, such as pitting taunt against smarts or intimidate against spirit or fighting against agility, throwing the enemy's guard down. Shaken when applied forces a spirit roll at the start of your turn in order to see if you can act, if not you are limited to moving half your speed, but you can break it with a benny, even out of turn.
So, imagine a character with high athletics, they got level headed and a fair chance of starting high in the order, their turn comes up, a bunch of orcs are poised to attack, they can take a hit but they are more worried about the squishy mage, so they hold their action. First orc comes at them they ward off the blow, second one rushes the mage who is standing behind them, they interrupt the orcs action to take a swat at them, they win initiative they score a solid enough blow to force shaken on the orc. Since the orc's turn has already started their turn is now loused up and they fail the attack, and now the mage can counter right into the orcs face on their turn.
Alternatively if you roll high damage you might remove exactly the things trying to damage the more vulnerable people in your team.
But you can play it off in other ways, like winning initiative and having really well trained taunt, which isn't like a MMO taunting. No. Taunt is all about using sick burns to jostle people into disadvantageous situations. In combat you can use it as a test against smarts, on a basic success you can inflict vulnerable (+2 to all attacks on the target) or even distracted (-2 on all their actions). If I ace the roll (beat the opposed check by +4) I can inflict shaken, which sets them up for more damage down the road, and might make them miss a turn, or like in the above example, I could try to interrupt people at range as they try to attack say me, or go after some objective I don't like.
And its through these various ways to force order on the initiative that things get interesting with this initiative system. THat's not to mention the Calculating edge which lets you ignore up to -2 modifier on penalites if your init is 4 or lower. -2 just happens to be the same penalty for a multi-action. Level headed and improved level headed explicitly let you pick which card you are going to use, so you could totally use the edge to fish for low cards to trigger calculating or lean on the high card for when you just have to go first.
Savage worlds tends to have some explosive excitement baked in though, the jokers play into that. +2 on all your actions really enhances your deadliness. And I seen parties get wrecked (but survive, mostly) because a swarm of ghouls got dealt a joker.
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So I was asked to give opinions on the savage worlds initiative system. And I gotta say I like it. Despite it's chaos it adds some interesting tactics.
To understand why let's dissect how it works:
You have a 54 card poker deck + two jokers.
Each round everyone is dealt at least 1 card.
If you have the hesitent hindrance you get dealt two cards and take the lowest.
If you have the level headed edge you are dealt two cards and choose which one you wish to use.
With improved level headed you draw three cards and choose.
And then there's the Quick edge which lets you redraw cards below 6, in cases of level headed, after you have drawn your two/3 cards you can start to discard and draw until one of them is over 6.
Extras (Nameless NPC masses) are grouped by type and all act on a single init card.
This continues each round until a joker is drawn. The one who has a joker gains +2 on all actions (this is very scary if a large group of extras gets this). Not only that they may go whenever they please that round with flawless interrupt. After a joker is drawn the deck is shuffled and things continue.
And the interrupting is where it gets fun.
See in a lot of d20 games you can prepare an action on a specific trigger to fire, you need to be quite specific on that trigger often and if it doesn't come up it can be a waste.
In savage worlds initiative you just hold on to the card. If something happens that you decide you need to interrupt you declare your intent to interrupt and roll athletics. The opposing party rolls agility, if you win, you go first, if they win, you go after then.
This can get pretty sneaky when you consider the mechanics of shaken.
In savage worlds you don't have a big HP pool, you basically inflict shaken with damage, and upgrade shaken to wounds, and you can also inflict shaken with tests, such as pitting taunt against smarts or intimidate against spirit or fighting against agility, throwing the enemy's guard down. Shaken when applied forces a spirit roll at the start of your turn in order to see if you can act, if not you are limited to moving half your speed, but you can break it with a benny, even out of turn.
So, imagine a character with high athletics, they got level headed and a fair chance of starting high in the order, their turn comes up, a bunch of orcs are poised to attack, they can take a hit but they are more worried about the squishy mage, so they hold their action. First orc comes at them they ward off the blow, second one rushes the mage who is standing behind them, they interrupt the orcs action to take a swat at them, they win initiative they score a solid enough blow to force shaken on the orc. Since the orc's turn has already started their turn is now loused up and they fail the attack, and now the mage can counter right into the orcs face on their turn.
Alternatively if you roll high damage you might remove exactly the things trying to damage the more vulnerable people in your team.
But you can play it off in other ways, like winning initiative and having really well trained taunt, which isn't like a MMO taunting. No. Taunt is all about using sick burns to jostle people into disadvantageous situations. In combat you can use it as a test against smarts, on a basic success you can inflict vulnerable (+2 to all attacks on the target) or even distracted (-2 on all their actions). If I ace the roll (beat the opposed check by +4) I can inflict shaken, which sets them up for more damage down the road, and might make them miss a turn, or like in the above example, I could try to interrupt people at range as they try to attack say me, or go after some objective I don't like.
And its through these various ways to force order on the initiative that things get interesting with this initiative system. THat's not to mention the Calculating edge which lets you ignore up to -2 modifier on penalites if your init is 4 or lower. -2 just happens to be the same penalty for a multi-action. Level headed and improved level headed explicitly let you pick which card you are going to use, so you could totally use the edge to fish for low cards to trigger calculating or lean on the high card for when you just have to go first.
Savage worlds tends to have some explosive excitement baked in though, the jokers play into that. +2 on all your actions really enhances your deadliness. And I seen parties get wrecked (but survive, mostly) because a swarm of ghouls got dealt a joker.
Savage worlds tends to have some explosive excitement baked in though
The one shot I played in savage worlds felt like a movie scene the whole time
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